So, first, I would just love to welcome you to this interview. This is the Hydration Foundation interviewing Dr. Ben Edwards. Tell me a little bit about your training and your background, Dr. Edwards. I know you run the Veritas. It’s very exciting what you’re doing. So, we can’t wait to share who you are and what you’re doing.

Ben:           Well, thank you, Gina. I really appreciate the invitation to speak on this amazing summit. So, thank you very much. I’ll trty to keep it brief. I’m a medical doctor trained allopathically. I was born and raised in central Texas watching my two granddads, which you might see on the shelf on the photos, but they were GPs. Those old school country doctors could do everything literally. They could from deliver babies to the grave and everything, little surgeries and broken bones, you name it, the house calls, all that stuff. So, that’s what I grew up knowing a doctor was and I wanted to do that. So, I went to Baylor Undergrad in the medical school. It’s a great institution of allopathic training. MD Anderson, Urban Hospital, the Texas Medical System. It’s like a 20-acre complex.

Gina:          They are doing cutting edge research. They’re really quite extraordinary.

Ben:           Exactly, great place to learn. So, that was 2002, I graduated, and I went to WACO to practice residency. I went there specifically because they trained family practice to kind of do it all and go to small town. So, we went to a small town out in West Texas, little town called Post named after CW Post, a real magnet, one of those [inaudible][03:10] and inventor, even dealt with water some. So, I was in Post for seven years doing the traditional thing, running a very busy rural family practice in a county clinic and doing that successfully, meaning we were financially successful because we saw lots of patients and that kept the doors open. The county was happy. We were happy. I was getting good bonuses every quarter. Texas Monthly did a story on us. The Washington Post picked it up and it’s on the front page. So, now we have fame and fortune, a brand-new county clinic we were able to build because we were so successful financially but after seven years of that, I started to get kind of an itch in my spirit over the fact that patients really weren’t getting well. And what I mean by that is I was prescribing the treatment I was trained. I mean, I’m a highly trained physician and if your blood sugar’s up, I give you Metformin. If your blood pressure’s up, I give you hydrochlorothiazide and lisinopril. I mean, I knew if you had a migraine, Imitrex or whatever. I knew the pharmaceutical approach very well. So, people would get temporarily, their blood sugars would come down for a little bit, but over the long haul, over a year or two it would creep up, whether it’s blood pressure, blood sugar, joint pain, migraines, you name it, reflux. Over the long haul, things didn’t go away. They were never cured. We tried to manage them but my management was always ultimately unsuccessful, meaning they just always needed higher dose and more meds, enough to go on with them. So, that was seven years ago when I was introduced to a divine appointment. A nurse practitioner at the time met an integrative functional type of doctor and open my eyes to this other realm that I never knew existed did and I think a lot of people don’t know existed. There’s root causes to people’s problems. I think, intuitively, we know that but if your doctor didn’t know it and you go to your doctor when you were sick and he was trained in a certain way that treats a symptom with pharmaceutical, it’s just hard to wrap your mind around the fact that there’d be something but this doctor convinced me there was something more and, ultimately, is sent my 10 sickest patients and they all came back better. And these were the worse of the worst. They’ve been to all specialists. They’ve been to the medical school specialists – fibromyalgia, lupus, and other autoimmune diseases and chronic prostatitis and chronic urticaria, brittle diabetics – and they all came back better, most of them all the way better and it blew me away.

I transitioned seven years ago into this root cause.

Gina:          Thank you, thank you, thank you. Help me to spread this. Oh my gosh! Yes.

Ben:           You mentioned Veritas. That’s lack of the truth. My wife and I were laying in bed one night, I was still kind of in shock that diabetes could be reversed and lupus patients could go into remission and not have symptoms. I have seen this [inaudible][06:08] and I I don’t know why and how but it is. It’s true. So, we named the clinic Veritas and we’ve been practicing for seven years for root cause medicine.

Gina:          I love the word ‘Veritas’. It’s a beautiful word. It’s actually in the motto for a Harvard. And I think the key here, Dr. Edwards, is that we all want to be healers, we all want to help, but if we don’t have the whole truth, we only have a limited truth, then we’re chasing down an alley of healing that’s a very limited alley. And that can’t be true.

Ben:           And unintended consequences. That’s a big catchphrase I like to try to explain to people. I’m giving a talk to the general public and I’m trying to open their mind that there’s more to this sickness thing. And if you’re only going to chase a symptom or treat the inflammation from the standpoint of let’s just suppress the inflammation going on in the body, there will be unintended consequence. So, I always give this analogy. My wife had a slow leak on her tire one time on her Suburban and I didn’t have time to fix it. So, I just would just put some air in it. It was a slow leak. So, for four or five days it was fine but it needed more air. So, every five days [inaudible][07:38] and it was working, she was getting by, she was doing her stuff, getting where she needed to go and it’s okay. The unintended consequence? The alignment was getting off and shocks and struts were taking a hit and the other three tires are probably getting negative consequences there and increased her risk for a blowout and roll over and death. And I didn’t think about the unintended consequence of the quick-fix treatment. So, always I encourage people to think about that if you’re not going to get deeper truth, deeper foundational core reason as to why you’re sick, even in the natural realm of what I learned is integrative and functional in some ways, and I don’t want people to take this the wrong way, especially my colleagues in the integrative world, but in some ways, I saw it as the green version of pharmaceutical base. I could give you berberine instead of Metformin and your blood sugar didn’t come down head to head and I published study on berberine … It needs Metformin for controlling blood sugar. So, that’s an approach. You can switch out a pharmaceutical treatment for a natural treatment and probably the side effects will be possibly less and it’s good, it’s a natural thing. That’s good. So, that’s better but you’re still diabetic. You’re still at risk of these unintended consequences down the road. So, why not resolve the type 2 diabetes which is really resolving insulin resistance which, really, you can’t do with a pill, even a natural one like berberine. So, people need to be careful with what I call the green version. Again, you meet people where they’re at and you’ve got to educate them and you give them what they need in the moment but, ultimately, the deeper truths of how the body was designed and created to function, you want to keep pressing down into that. Of course, I know but I’m always looking more and deeper and deeper. So, that’s how our approach has been.

Gina:          Tell me you have four principles that you like to speak of and practice. And I know one of them is going to be hydration. That’s why we’re together now. So, give me the four and then we’ll return to an emphasis on hydration. And thank you. Thank you for thinking through all this and bringing it down to Four Pillars.

Ben:           And I really felt like that was kind of a divine revelation because I was brand new. I left that clinic really, I didn’t know what I was doing, I just knew it was the right way to go, and I was self-teaching and reading tons of books, and then going to conferences, and I felt pretty early on like this is pretty complicated, really cool, but all this is integrative and functional and holistic nutrition and all this is complicated. And I went to my first kind of natural or integrative, it was one of these, I believe, it was an anti-aging type conference in San Francisco and it was on bioidentical hormone replacement, which is cool and we do some of that still here but these were some amazing doctors giving presentations over the three-day weekend conference. And I believe, it was concoctions of three and four and 10 different natural hormones. It was blowing my mind. And at the end of the conference, the Q&A time, I got up to the mic in this panel of world-renowned natural hormone doctors and I said “Okay, guys, thank you. This is awesome.” I mean, I got case studies that people are doing great on these hormones. I’m not knocking them but I said to him “If I could get my patients to have good nutrition, good hydration, good movement and be at peace, not be stressed out, how many of these hormone manipulative therapies would we they need to do?” And that panel, they kind of looked back and forth at themselves, and they looked at me and said “You’ll never get your patients to do those four things” but I took that as “Yeah, you’re not going to need all these natural remedies if you really can get to that core four pillars” is what I’m terming them. So, that was really early on. This is simple. Yet if people were to do that and believe it and …

Gina:          Give me the four again. I want to hear the four in my head. I want to hear this.

Ben:           Nutrition, Hydration, Movement, and Peace. The interesting thing is hydration was kind of on the back burner for the last five years but then I started learning more it, then I met you, of course read the book Quench, I interviewed you on my podcast, and I did a deep dive and I started taking feedback and hydration really is in all those four pillars because, like you’ve talked about, you’ve got to eat your water. You can’t just drink it or your fluids. I mean, of course you got to eat it too. So, the nutrition component. Of course, hydration is hydration but movement is, as you talked about too and I learned really from you, I mean, half of hydration is movement. You’ve got to get the water from where it’s sitting, you’ve got to get it to sprinkle out into all the periphery and you do that in the fascia. The fascia’s got to be twisted and turned and squeezed and all of that. And then, of course, peace. We could talk a whole another summit about peace and how the intracellular water and extracellular water is impacted by stress and emotions and thoughts. So, it’s interesting how they all [inaudible][13:02].

Gina:          All right, I think we’re back. Sorry for that little bump. I think we were going over the four principles. And we had, I was what I was really enjoying what you were saying about hydration hits, each of those points, and it’s this really worth reiterating. So, you can do that again. We’d all love to hear that.

Ben:           Okay. Well, the interesting thing when I started taking a deep dive in the hydration pillar because I knew it was important but it was always kind of just get your water but, of course, now, especially after reading your book, understanding that you have to eat your water so that nutrition pillar, that’s a component of hydration. You’ve got to eat hydrating foods and stop eating dehydrating foods. And then, of course, the movement pillars we’ve learned, the water can be in, the sprinkler system has to be activated at soaker hose and fascia in the body that hydrates every cell. That water has to come out of the fascia and it does it better when you move, when you twist and turn, up and down and just the movement. And then the real interesting thing is from a peace pillar standpoint when you’re in fight or flight mode and you’re stressed and really when you dive deeper that’s rooted in your thoughts and some identity issues and some false beliefs you have about yourself and all kinds of deeper emotional things impact the water in the cell. It’s incredible the more you learn about the memory of water. I mean, that’s a whole topic we go into with water. Water is involved in all the pillars. It was a very kind of curious and interesting thing as I started to learn more. So, it’s pretty cool when you can teach people to just really try to focus and we can treat symptoms that we do but we don’t want to just stop there. We really want to try to get them to nail those four pillars of nutrition and hydration movement piece and you really got to address all four. And I actually find that peace is number one. If you’re stressed to the max and [inaudible][02:16] and it doesn’t work your and the body can’t function as it was designed to function.

Gina:          Okay, Ben, be our guy on hydration and peace. I’m so grateful. First of all, I just love the thread you created which is while you have your four pillars – Hydration, Nutrition, Movement, and Peace – actually, water runs through each of those and carries those. And we have many physicians now on the summit speaking about their specialty and hydration. For example, hydration and psychiatric help. We have people talking about how your medications are better diluted through the use of good hydration and if you’re taking meds, you’ve got to have higher hydration. We don’t have this. This is really special. So, I’ll frame it by saying one way to talk about this is to say that stress chemicals effect our hydration and conversely hydration effects our stress levels. So, having more support through better hydration is definitely going to impact the stress levels that we’re living at. And, by the way, just speaking as an anthropologist again, we live in the most abnormal society that’s ever been created. We live in the most artificial environment, biological environment that’s ever been created. And we’re living at stress levels that no human community has ever lived at before. Oh, by the way, string those things together and you’ve got like why we have now 51% of us in some kind of chronic condition.

Ben:           Right. It’s totally lost on our [inaudible][04:05] as a people group. Weston A. Price talked about that in 1920s and 1930s these native tribes that he would live with in a group that was still eating and living and practicing traditional ancestral ways of living, were resistant and resilient to tuberculosis and heart disease and cancer and some of these things. He saw that a hundred years ago. Well, in modern day world we continue to deteriorate and lose our resiliency but it’s all these stressors and all these factors. I mean, we can talk about a gazillion of them from EMS to you name it, these chronic infections and lack of nutrition – food, sedentary lifestyle, and there’s so many things and it all adds up to push us into this oxidative stress world. And so, yeah, we need to offload as much of those stressors as possible but we can’t ignore the fact we also need to build our internal resiliency. And I think that’s really where the four pillars come in. And hydration, like I said, goes through all of them but that peace pillar, when there’s a lack of peace, from a resiliency standpoint, if you want to undermine somebody’s physiology, put them into that fight or flight mode. And, as you stated, the chemicals are fighter or flight – adrenaline, cortisol, and all these adrenal hormones can get turned on when you’re in that fight or flight state. Those have physiological effects on us, of course, elevate your heart rate and dilate your eyes and increase your respiratory rate and block your thyroid from converting from inactive to active and all these metabolic consequences. Can’t ignore that for sure but then there’s all these other consequences too beyond just the physiology or it’s kind of blended with physiology with the water. When you de-structure the water, and I know Dr. Tom Cowan, I think, is speaking on this, I’ve learned a lot from Dr. Cowan and Dr. Bush, but when you start to understand the memory of the water and the water needs to be structured, it’s that structuring of the water that energizes the cell membrane to adjust itself, your cells unadjusted can’t function. And I think all these negative things that we’re trying to offload, all the stressors, they all de-structure the water but your thoughts, I don’t know if this has been proven but, in my opinion, if it hasn’t been proven, my thought is a thought that’s not based in the truth will lead to faltering your mind that will lead to stress, lead to fight or flight, de-structure that water. And as I dive in deeper into the fresh knowledge, [Inaudible][06:48], he was I think an immunologist just studying allergens. He would take a patient’s blood, if you were allergic to peanuts or to cat dander or whatever, and then he would get a little bit of that antigen, a little bit that cat dander and get a drop of your blood and put it together and if your immune system cells basically react, it’s an antigen and they would dump out the whole system. And so that was kind of his specialty. And then one of his lab partners, another physician, introduced the thought of homeopathy, which Dr. [Inaudible][07:20] didn’t know anything about it and he explained it with homeopathy you’re diluting the cat dander and you dilute it so much, you dilute it by a billion times to where there’s no more cat dander in the actual dilution anymore. And he used that with the patient’s blood and it induce the same histamine reaction as if the dander were there. So, he coined the memory of water. And so, when you start to understand that and then you start to understand your thoughts, you’re way more than just in fight or flight mode. Your heart rate is up. You can’t sleep. You’re in deeper level of we’ve got to drill down to these thoughts that came in some point in your life. And, in my experience, it seems to boil down to provision or protection – someone’s stressed out about their provision or their protection or maybe a third of one in place, their identity, they don’t know who they are. And, of course, it’s to get more into the deeper personal realm and I have my personal beliefs about that but it’s an amazing design the way, and I’m going to come at it from a biblical scriptural standpoint but not church and religion but I find this fascinating book, it’s really 66 different books written over 1500 years by 40 different authors on three different continents in three different languages. And it’s a one amazing story that I call my Quantum Physics textbook. When we need to really put religion to the side and dive into that thing, it’s amazing as a man thinks it. I mean, the very first words of the Bible are about water. God’s Spirit hovered over the water. And even before he said “Let there be light,” there was water. So, there’s something about life-water, life-thoughts and beliefs. And some people may think it sounds crazier out there hocus pocus but, like I said in the beginning, I’m all about patients getting better. And if I saw patients not getting better, I was managing them but they weren’t really getting better, then I get into integrative round and they definitely got more better and some didn’t or they relapsed. And so, you just have to keep going deeper and deeper and deeper and you’re inevitably going to land in the quantum physics realm outside of the natural. You’re going to land in the supernatural. And you’re going to start to see how a thought can impact the water in yourself and in your body.

Gina:          I love the supernatural, the above the chemical, molecular material. So, just helping people place this in a larger context. Now, we have science language to speak about this now and it’s really, really, really a new world. So, electromagnetic forces, of which your thoughts are central, to driving molecular reactions. So, those electromagnetic forces come before the chemistry. They’re engendered. In fact, that’s how life got made. These fields, these invisible fields that we are just beginning to actually realize “Oh my gosh! The mechanism of action isn’t the chemical reaction where we’re watching. The chemical reaction is a reaction to the electromagnetic information.”

Ben:           You got it. And I know Dr. Cowan, I think, speaks to this. We can have a bag of … I’ve got my beer, I’ve got my juice, my carrot juice, and there’s other things in it but he talks about you get all the [inaudible][11:05] molecules in a regular carrot but that’s not a carrot. You lack the form. You lack the structure. And there’s something about, and, again, I’m going to take the biblical perspective, God said “Let there be light” and every verse of Genesis in that first chapter, God said in spoken words, that’s vibrational frequencies and energies. And speaking of EMF or electromagnetic frequencies, that reminds me of the Nobel Prize winning doctor in 2008, Dr. Montagnier. He went on to prove basically was Jacques [Inaudible][11:43] true or quack with this memory water thing but what Montagnier did was look at the electromagnetic outputs from an HIV … He was distinguished with the 2008 Nobel Prize because of discovering HIV. He’s a biologist but his technology looks at the EMF footprint of the virus and other things. And so, what he did was take the HIV virus basically, dilute it, dilute it, dilute to that dilution where there’s no more virus there, poked his little probe to it and up on the computer screen blipped that EMF fingerprint, the electromagnetic frequency of that virus. Then he went one step further and he sends that information over the Internet to a lab, I think, in Italy or in France or somewhere. And the guys in Italy took that EMF signature of the vibrational energies and put it into basically a test tube with some water and some DNA particles and they reconstituted the virus. The information to create a virus was transmitted via water. Remember it was diluted and then it was transmitted via technology into water. It’s amazing. And it kind of blows people’s mind. It blows my mind. And this is the whole quantum realm and doctors don’t know any of this. I didn’t. I had two hours of nutrition in med school. So, I really knew nothing about nutrition, much less hydration, movement, and peace and quantum. I mean, it is an amazing world. And if you’re going to truly help your patients to get down to that very core and go be well and not need a doctor, and actually my goal in life is to shut down Veritas Medical. I’ve got six nurse practitioners, three clinics in three different cities. My goal is to shut them all down. We shouldn’t need a doctor. We weren’t designed for our physical body that fail us in the time that we’ve been allotted on the earth. Our body should function. It’s poor stewardship of our health but it’s from lack of knowledge. People don’t know. Doctors don’t know. I’m so grateful for the summit because it’s summits like these that you get the information out there. I know the mind can occur and then the structure of water at the cellular can change. So, there’s so much to this, it’s very exciting.

Gina:          I’m so fired up too because the idea … Oh, by the way, becoming an expert in anthropology and saying these are matching now, this conversation is matching indigenous wisdom traditions. And great wisdom traditions like the Bible that carry this idea that, as you speak, speak to yourself, speak in your prayers, speak in your intentions, that is a vibrational impact then that goes into the physiology. And, further, I think that we are really finding out that our physiology then impacts the physiology around us. So, our ecology then becomes involved. And even you mentioned earlier about, the phrase that came instantly in my mind as you were speaking earlier was “community immunity.” Yeah, that’s what we’re missing. We’re missing community immunity which is another level of immunity, not just personal immunity, but when we’re together as resilient creatures, a new level of immunity that emerges. And I think that’s another way to talk about how life evolves. So, in this conversation, I think what’s really important is to recognize we’re living in new environments that are damaging and we have to as a community adapt. We have to activate our own internal resilience, our own immunity, but then why a summit? Why conversations like this? They create community immunity and, boy, we need it because to be a soul healthy person in a river of people, say you’re walking in an airport, you’re getting to a gate, you’re streaming past so many ill people, you just see it, it’s so painful. It just hurts, hurts, hurts. So, being a soul healthy person in a community environment actually isn’t that fun? You miss the health and vibrancy and all that we could be accomplishing in our health. So, we do want to move out of being just managing illness, like you said, and moving into what if we really flourished, what if we got all the way to our eldership as flourishing creatures and that void we’re all feeling and that creates new stresses.

So, I’m going to returning this conversation about how you get to peace? Give me your recipes for peace.

Ben:           I was just about to say people want a recipe or “What’s step one, two, three? Tell me how to do it. I’ll go do it.” That sounds good. I want peace. And I don’t have that. I don’t think there is a step one, two, and three. Human beings naturally want these. Basically, they want a guarantee – “I’m going to go through that and it better [inaudible][17:16] result” – and that’s not how this works. It can’t work that way. And it’s very unique and individualized, I believe. And so, I’ll tell you my own personal understanding and beliefs. To me, it boils down to … And, again, I don’t want to come across the wrong way. I know there’s benefit in doing lots of these different techniques and I don’t tell people not to do them, like meditation and yoga and, of course, prayer and go exercise and get sunshine and these things will bring parasympathetic tone down. There are even some cool technologies out there that will bring that heart rate variability right back. We’re not discussing all that. I’m not opposed to that but what I’m saying is why do you need to go back to that technique or that thing every day or twice a week or once a week. What’s deeper down driving you into that thought or that state of mind when you’ve got to go tap or meditate or whatever? And, again, I don’t want to come across the wrong way that they don’t need to do it. I know they’re beneficial. I’m not saying they’re not beneficial. Unintended consequences, that might be a good way to put it, if there’s some deeper underlying things. So, we’re encouraging patients to go a little deeper into what is the thought you had right before you had the thought “I need to go do some deep breathing exercise.”? What was that thought? And was that thought based in the truth? Now this is where it’s tricky because, I mean, people say “Oh, you got the truth, doc? What about my truth and this truth? Anybody’s got a truth.’ So, I don’t want to step on some toes but, again, I’m going to turn to the book that I consider the truth and it boils down to provision and protection. Someone’s trying to figure out how to provide for themselves or how to protect themselves. That’s what an orphan does. An orphan doesn’t have a dad or a mom. And they’ve got to scrounge and call and robust sweat their brow to get every single thing and store up enough of it so they’re provided, guarantee myself and tomorrow. I can predict I’ll have provision and protection. That’s what an orphan does. Well, if you see yourself as … know god and he will give me what I need in the moment that are need it. So, fear and anxiety and all that, I think, is rooted in just thoughts and we’ve got to do this ourselves. It’s all on us, the duels. It’s an orphan mentality is what I call it.

Gina:          I love that.

Ben:           On personal bit on that, I think, people have to just wrestle with the fact are we here randomly or is there something outside of the natural. And if there is a supernatural, is it a personal supernatural force or an impersonal force? And then if it is a personal course, is it just a random God or do we have a kind of divinely inspired guide book it, like I said, up conservative quantum physics guide book. They can really get my thoughts lined up to the point where … Live stressors are going to come. I’m going to get a letter from the IRS. Maybe my wife and I get in an argument or whatever it is. There are foreclosures coming. There’s always going to be the world stressors. And Bruce Hinton talks about this. It’s your reaction to, your response to those world stressors, but that response is going to be rooted in what your core beliefs about yourself are.

Gina:          Yes, and what you believe it … I think Einstein really got to this too. Either you think life is miraculous and the universe is benevolent or don’t. And then our work there is gleaning and dirt learning how to lean on what choice you’ve made in either direction. How do you actually lean into believing that life is benevolent, it’s an incredible gift, you will be supported, your life will be supported because it’s already been given to you. You go through this course of life. And I happen to believe it goes beyond the body. If I’m going to respectfully listen to indigenous traditions, I don’t have any other conclusion to come to but the beneficence of that support and then, again, how we activate that, how we lean into that protection and lean into that practice and lean into the discovery of it to actually be rescued over and over and over again as breathing, that every breath that we take is a rescue.

Ben:           These are the foundational personal thoughts and the world, at least in America, is so busy, so distracted, and so full of half-truths, nobody has the time to sit on the ground and soak up some sun and fresh air and listen to the birds and listen to water. That’s another thing that struck me. It was just the sound of water, that the ocean waves coming and going. We have a water feature here in the clinic and it’s just amazing, the sounds. I was just at the EMF conference and all these man-made EMFs coming in ourselves and this fingernail on the chalkboard sounds at the cellular level and then the doctor showed a microphone, you basically put against the tree and a fern bush, and flower, the sounds of nature at the molecular ad quantum level were amazing like an orchestra but we’re all too busy, we’re all too stressed out and most of us are clueless as to the fact that there is this other realm of hell called the supernatural.

Gina:          And entering into that realm is what we do as healers is call people there, call people back, call people and invite people in. And I think that’s what this summit has been about. I think that water is the invitation. It’s the beginning door that opens that possibility for healing. And, again, I’m very taken with your description of kind of the phrase here as “community immunity.”

You’re sitting in this beautiful room with this gorgeous natural brick behind you in a shelf full of memories and we’re taking the time to sit and talk, we’re taking time out of our professional … This is part of our professional work but also look at the conversation we’re having. And I think that when we connect with each other and just stop to look in each other’s eyes and to care about the conversations and to let our cell-to-cell, beyond our inner cell, but our cell-to-cell communication, my cells to your cells, our cells on this summit out to everyone who is listening, each person is there’s vibrations coming to you that are quantum, fabulous, their counter to EMF, their healing and …

Ben:           The natural EMFs. I’m going to say really quickly that since I met you, which I don’t remember, it’s been a couple years, I think, and read the book but just the community in the hydration world I’ve been connected to, even one of our patients, actually he’s the husband of one of our PAs, is in the agricultural world. And that’s a whole another … that could be a summit in and of itself. So, hydration disorder and how you plow [inaudible][25:00]. Let’s give them the soil, the sponginess, that holds the water droplets, that holds the bacteria, that gives the plant the nutrients. It’s amazing how hydration, and just that community immunity, as you said, the connection with the different fields, it’s not just medicine, it’s not just psychiatry, it’s not just whatever. There’s this amazing interplay and interconnection and hydration. This is all of it. So, it’s been exciting to be diving deeper into hydration since we spoke a while back and I thank you for all you’ve done for introducing me and encouraging me to dive deeper here and try to practice those things. So, it’s been great. I felt like the hydration pill is kind of the stepchild and now it’s risen to this … I mean, they’re all important but it’s so cool to see the play and for you and the group bringing this to the forefront. Thank you for doing.

Gina:          Thank you, Dr. Ben Edwards of Veritas. We are so pleased to have your thoughts, to have your community immunity broadcasting towards us, your love of your own profession and your healing capacity and your willingness to want to step out of it and see us all move into healing. And we’re really delighted to support you in your work and make sure people are aware of your Four Pillars, how you framed it, how you stood up in front of a panel of experts on anti-aging and said “Well, how can we get ourselves out of business?” That’s a beautiful thing. So, we bless you. We bless your work. We thank you from the Hydration Foundation. We look forward to posting this interview and may water bless us all.

Ben:           Thank you, Gina. I really enjoyed it. Bye, bye.

Gina:          Welcome, Dr. Tom Cowen, to the Hydration Foundation Doctor Talk Series. We’re really pleased we have you to speak about hydration, especially you because you have such a unique take on hydration, its place, its role in our health and life. And, again, the purpose of this interview is to help other physicians really learn new things about hydration, increase our understanding, help us bring better information into clinics, into hospitals, into doctors’ offices so they can really see the importance and value of hydration.

So, will you share with us a little bit about your expertise, your credentials, your current work, however you like to share how you got to be where you are? And thank you so much for this interview. We are really, really excited.

Dr. Tom:     Okay. Thank you for having me. My credential or how I got here was basically I grew up thinking every or everybody else thinking I should be a doctor and I hated the idea. So, I tried to figure out anything else I could do but be a doctor. I went to university and didn’t like that. And so, I got out, joined the Peace Corps to see if I could try to figure out how to be a gardener which seemed more useful than being a doctor. And I loved gardening, but I didn’t really see a way forward but, luckily, when I was in the Peace Corps, I ran into the work of Rudolf Steiner and Weston Price while living in a hut in Swaziland and that convinced me that the doctoring that I didn’t want to do was not the only way that doctoring could be done. And so, that was kind of a revelation, turning point for me. So, then I went to medical school, did internship, and started studying Anthroposophical Medicine at that time, this was in the early 80s. And pretty much in 1984-ish, 1985 set up a practice and have been doing more or less the same thing ever since. It’s, of course, changed through the years. So, hopefully, I know more than I did then. I helped start the Weston Price foundation with Sally Fallon. I was part of the physicians for Anthroposophical Medicine for a while but now I’m not really part of that. And I just tried to figure out how to do medicine and how to do life ever since. I don’t particularly have any other credentials. I’m self taught, I would say.

Gina:          Self discovery. I mean, the truth is there for us to find.

Dr. Tom:     I don’t trust much institutional learning anyway, frankly. So, that’s how I did it. I don’t know if it’s always the best way but it’s certainly the only way for me.

Gina:          And it’s a way, it’s a way and what we’re doing here is trying to share ways, many ways to understand how we got to where we are and why hydration has become an issue I have a list of questions that are really important, carefully constructed. So, I’m going to be reading them to you but that’s okay. We’re still in a live conversation but I know that in your just out book Vaccine Autoimmunity And The Changing Nature Of Childhood Illnesses you devote a great deal of your writing to structured or gel water or hydration. And, in fact, many are not aware that the water inside the cell is not H₂O. Also, 100% of the water in the cell is in this gel phase, fourth phase, easy water, liquid crystalline water. We have a lot of structured water. We have a lot of names. We haven’t settled on a name yet because this is all really coming into focus now that there’s actually different kinds of water in the body. Extraordinary information.

Can you help us shape our understanding both structurally and energetically about what this water is?

Dr. Tom:     Okay. So, I often jokingly say that the reason I wrote the vaccine autoimmune book, it was the second of what’s now become a three-part series, the third part is coming out soon, and that’s essentially all about water. So, first of all, it was about…

Gina:          I can’t wait for the book.

Dr. Tom:     Yeah. The first one was about the heart and why the blood moves or how the blood moves. The second one was about autoimmunity and vaccines but the real issue that got me started was ever since I was a child, which comes under the category of the things that … there’s a difference between observation like things one can experience versus what we’re told is true or at least what’s focused on. So, for instance, I noticed ever since I was a child that when I got sick, it had a very specific sequence of events which was I was fine and then I got a fever and felt sick and achy and all that and then I got snot and then I got better. And it never went the other way around. And I wondered about that. Why is that the case? It happened the same way every single time now for 55 years that I remember. And nobody ever said anything about that in medical school or medical training. Nobody seemed to care. And so, essentially I was left on my own to try to sort that out. So, that was sort of the question that led me to that. And if you end up answering that question, the whole panorama of water and structured water actually comes into focus.

And the other question I would say I have tried to answer for 40-ish years is the question that could be encapsulated “What is life?” and what I mean by that is the central tenet of conventional medicine and science is that the only thing that exists in the world is substance. That’s like considered axiomatic. In other words, we all believe that or if you don’t, you’re a crazy person. Now, it’s true that some people believe in “God” or something but that’s different. That’s like out there somewhere or in heaven or has nothing to do with my foot or how a frog works or anything. So, there’s only substance. That’s what medicine is based on. So, I tried to essentially examine that. For instance, what I found was, it’s not like God said that’s the case. Actually, the guy who said that was the case was actually Rene Descartes. Nobody believed that before that, nobody, no traditional person, no indigenous person, not Isaac Newton or Galileo or Shakespeare or Alexander the Great or Socrates or Plato. Nobody believed that until Descartes. And he said “Okay. So, the only thing that exists is substance and mechanics. And that’s how from now on we have to study the human being” which means that we don’t have any conception of the difference between life and non-life.

And you could say “Well, how does this have to do with water and hydration?” And the way that I would explain that is to ask somebody to imagine a carrot and then imagine, okay, the carrot is like we’re told is made out of only substance. So, if you took all the atoms which is what we think substance is made out of, so 46 trillion hydrogens and 6000 nitrogens and sulfurs and all that and you go to a chemical store and say “I want a bag of all those elements” and they give you a bag and you mix them all together and you put it on the table and it’s just little heap of stuff. And the question is, is that a carrot? I ask a lot of people that and I ask a lot of patients that. And as far as I’ve heard, nobody thinks that’s a carrot. It’s just a pile of stuff. And so the question then, if that’s clearly not a carrot, what’s missing from the carrot? And whenever I ask people to think about this, I ask them to think about it as if they were a 7-year-old or maybe a 5-year-old because you could say “Well, the carrot has blah, blah, blah, sulfur, hydrogenated bonds of 64 degrees and a heap of stuff doesn’t have that.” Right, except that may be true but that’s not what a 7-year-old would say. They would say “That pile there, that doesn’t look like a carrot.” – “Why not?” – “It doesn’t have the right shape or form of a carrot. It doesn’t smell like a carrot. It doesn’t taste like a carrot. It’s not a carrot. I know it’s not a carrot. There’s nothing you could say that would convince me that that’s the carrot.”

So the question is what’s missing? What’s missing is the form and the fact that this stuff is not living, whereas a carrot is and a whole lot of things that come out of that. So, you can then picture why Steiner called this living principle, he called it the etheric body but he called it also the form body. So, in a sense, a carrot is stuff plus form.

Now, the reason that’s relevant to us is …

Can we stop one second here?

Gina:          Tom, I love where you’re going. I appreciate it. I’m an anthropologist. So, the question of what else besides the material reality has been so drummed out of our culture. And there we are, I like to say this as an ethnographer, we are the only culture, the moderns, who ever come to the conclusion that material reality completely holds all of us, all the explanation.

Dr. Tom:     Right, it’s such a myth. there’s no evidence to support it.

Gina:          No other culture in history has ever or even, I mean, I don’t know, no other culture in history has ever really lived the life that we have lived stripped of all other skills and resources.

Dr. Tom:     Can you speak up a little bit? I don’t know if I can turn the volume up.

Gina:          Yeah. I said no other culture has ever lived, stripped in the way we are of other skills and accesses to other ways of thinking and being beyond material. And we’ve been reduced to materialists. And I think this is a great problem in trying to address what health is or even what water is.

Dr. Tom:     Right, it’s a problem of water.

So should I go back to …

Gina:          I’d love that.

Dr. Tom:     So, basically what’s missing is the form and it’s pretty easy to see. So, the other word that Steiner use for it was a form body or the formative force. It’s also the force. It’s the principle that makes stuff into life.

Gina:          I love that.

Dr. Tom:     And so, without that form principle, that life body or etheric body, he called it, there is no life. And here’s where it becomes relevant to us. The form body only can work through water. So, in other words, the definition of a plant or any living thing is stuff plus water creates form equals life.

Now, there was a very famous physicist named Erwin Schrodinger who actually wrote a book called What Is Life and he said that all non-life is subject to two basic forces – entropy and gravity. So, if I take this book and drop it, it will fall down. And if you leave it there 1000 years, it will turn into dust, but not so with living things. Living things go up like a tree or like a child and they make increasing complex forms and not subject to entropy. So, those laws don’t apply to living things. Yet we have a science that studies living things according to those laws, which is basically … It’s lunacy. I mean, there’s no empirical evidence that that is actually true. That’s just what we believe.

Why do we believe it? At best I can tell because a) Descartes said it and he was kind of a lunatic himself and b) people make a lot of money off that and they do a lot of interesting things as a result of that like make stuff at the expense of the life of people and the planet. So, the more people have gone down that road, the more stuff we make and the less life we have. And so, now we get to a situation where we’re like almost extinct. Why? Because we don’t either believe in, understand, or even attempt to study life. So, that was part of my background.

The other part was, getting more to the issues that you’re talking about with hydration and water, I was taught in medical school that the basic fundamental unit of biology is a cell, which I can buy that to a certain extent, and the cell is a membrane-bound sack of water with stuff floating in it. So, nobody ever said there’s three phases of water form. They just said there’s basically three phase of matter – ice, water, steam. And so, the question then is what phase of water is the stuff in our cells? It’s not ice and it can’t be steam. Everybody said “Well, it’s liquid water.” I mean, I didn’t know to ask that question then but that was implied. We’re basically a membrane-bound bag of liquid with stuff floating in it.

So, then I was an ER doctor for 10 years part time and I saw people shot and bludgeoned and stabbed and all kinds of things and I never once saw anybody with a puddle of water next to their bed, which I must admit I ask myself because I knew it by then not to ask anybody else. So, where is all the water? I mean, there’s blood but that’s different, that’s not inside the cell. There supposedly is all this water. 70% of the contents inside the cell you can prove is water or at least sort of like water and yet there was no water squirting out of this person on the bed. So, I basically didn’t believe the whole thing. That’s not how it works. And so, that led me into the sort of dual investigation of trying to “prove” the etheric body or “prove” this life force and studying what’s the deal with water because it’s obviously not like we were told.

The points I want to make here is there’s so many things in our world, which we believe and we’re told to believe and everybody believes. And if you just sort of look at it, it’s just not true. I don’t know who made that up but it’s not true. Then it becomes this kind of concept of cognitive dissonance. So, everybody believes there’s only three phases of matter. And then you look at jello and you say “Which one is that? Well, it’s not ice and it’s not water and it’s definitely not steam.” So, what I learned in third grade, which is the foundation of material life on earth is nonsense and all you have to do is make jello and find out.

Gina:          Well, you speak of charge in the cell and you speak of charge in the cell in a fascinating way that I hadn’t yet come across in my own research on water. You speak about the charge in the cell as a way to space cells appropriately from each other. I thought that was absolutely key and a very new way to help us visualize, think, and organize our own thinking around water. And you say in sort of a counterpoint that uncharged cells club together and are tumor forming. So, I wanted to ask what function does this jello like water have in maintaining this correct charge in cells?

Dr. Tom:     Right. So, that gets into one of the fundamental aspects of my work because essentially what I’m … So, if you go back into history, one of the most pressing biological questions was how come cells, mammalian cells, live in a high sodium-rich environment and yet have a low-sodium environment inside the cell. On the other hand, they live in a potassium-poor environment outside of the cell. Yet they have a potassium-rich interior of the cell. And that goes for all cells. And that’s one of the fundamental sort of paradoxes of cellular theory and animal existence. How does that happen? Because the cell membrane is permeable to sodium and potassium. So, if you can imagine if you put a balloon with distilled water in a vat of saltwater and the skin of the balloon was that the sodium and potassium could freely travel in and out, within a very short time, like minutes, it would equilibrate and the sodium and potassium would be the same inside the balloon and outside the balloon. And that’s what should happen with a human cell. The sodium and potassium should equilibrate and it should be the same inside and outside. And we’ve known for hundreds of years that’s not the case. The sodium is low on the inside and high on the outside. And the fact that that happens creates a charge around the cell and creates a charge through the cell membrane which allows the cell to do work. So, essentially everything is dependent on the cell being charged including, as you said, if there’s … the reason the liver has the form that it does is because the liver cells have a charge. And when two negatively charged liver cells come together, they keep their distance appropriate for a liver cell, which is different than an eye cell or foot cell and that’s how the form of the liver is created. If you lose the charge, it’s like a dead battery. So, then there’s no charge on the outside and the cells clump together. They become too dense because there’s no negative repulsion to keep them apart and that’s what we call a tumor

So, fundamental to understanding the whole cancer process is why does the cell lose its charge? Well, there’s been centuries of research into how this sodium-potassium distribution happens. And I don’t know how many Nobel Prizes awarded. They figured it out. There is a sodium-potassium pump embedded in the membrane. And they have pictures of it. And you can know all the protein subtypes and all this has been figured out. And so, you can clearly see that the reason why the sodium-potassium has the distribution that it does, low sodium in the inside, high on the outside, is because there’s a pump in the membrane, it looks like a merry-go-round, it binds sodium in the inside, potassium on the outside and it circles around, dumps the potassium on the inside and dumps the sodium on the outside. That creates the separation of charges which creates voltage across the cell wall which creates the distribution of the cells and allows the cell to do work.

Right. We figured that out. We have drugs that affect the sodium-potassium pump. The whole thing is brilliant. And then a guy named Gilbert Ling comes along and he did something very interesting. He isolated the pump and figured out how much energy it would take to run the pump to create this distribution. And what he figured out apparently for the first time, and it’s about a 200-page proof, so it’s long and tedious, I must admit, but he figured out that it would take about 300 times the amount of energy available to the cell in total to run this pump. In other words, it’s like you have a mortgage of 9,000 dollars a month for your house and your salary is 2000. Eventually a) you’re going to lose the house and b) you’re not going to have enough money to do anything else like eat. Simply the math doesn’t add up. So, I like to say there is no pump. The pump is a myth. It’s nonsense. There is a pump but it’s like a backup system which rarely gets used.

And the other interesting thing about this is you can take this cell and you can poke a number of holes in it like hundreds and it still maintains the same charge and the same sodium-potassium distribution, which essentially means you can get rid of the cell membrane where the pump is supposedly residing and it doesn’t affect the distribution of sodium-potassium. So, the whole thing is basically a myth.

Then he had to answer the question then “Well, so how does this distribution come about if it’s not this mythical pump?” And here the answer essentially tells the whole story. He said the water in the cell is not water. It’s a very specific gel form which has specific bond angles, which creates a kind of framework or mesh inside the cell. And, again, I like to talk in analogies here. It’s like a mosquito netting. There’s a little bit of a difference here. So, the size of the mosquito netting is so organized so you keep the mosquitoes out and let the air in. And if it’s too small, the mesh, the air doesn’t get in and that doesn’t work. And if the mesh is too big, then the mosquitoes get in and it doesn’t work. By some quirk of nature, supposedly or god or however one wants to think of this, this etheric force, the mesh of a gel is the perfect size to by itself hang on to potassium and exclude sodium. So, there’s no energy needed to do this sodium-potassium distribution. That’s how life happened in animal systems and animal cells. The mesh had to be a certain size and only structured or gel phase water has that size, which by itself attaches to potassium and excludes sodium. And so, that’s the answer.

The next question is how does this gel form? And then you get into something else, because I have a slightly Yiddish background, it’s called a bubbe-meise, which means an old wives tale. So, how does this gel happen in the cell? Exactly the same you make jello. You make jello by … You put proteins in water, except then nothing happens. So, you have to add energy and that’s called heat. So, you heat it up. What happens is the gelatin proteins unfold. They go from this to this. That allows them to interact with the water. And then when you cool it down, it forms gels. So, that’s how you form jello. So, how does the gel form in a human cell. So, you take proteins and you then add an energy source. Now, you can’t put a human being over a Bunsen burner. At least I don’t think that would work. So, you need a non heat energy source and that energy source is ATP.

Now, some people think ATP is the energy molecule of a biological system and that’s a myth. It’s not.

Gina:          I know you understand ATP differently than what I’ve heard in the past. So, I’m anxious to hear how your take is a bit different.

Dr. Tom:     Right. ATP is considered the energy molecule of biological systems. And everybody these days is all about ATP and mitochondria and all that. Now, I’m not saying that ATP isn’t important because I’ll tell you why it is important in a second but it isn’t energy molecule. There’s no more energy in an ATP than there is in any other normal molecule. How do I know that? Because Ling proved it, without a shadow of a doubt. And anybody who wants to know it, just read the works of Gilbert Ling. So, there’s no energy in it but what it does is it binds to the proteins that make up the skeleton of the cell and it unfolds them similar to how heat works in jello. It unfolds the proteins, the proteins interact with the water and that forms the gel. The gel then excludes the sodium and binds to potassium that charges the cell and creates the form of the interaction of the cells versus other cells, creating the form of the organs and tissues and that’s how life works. It’s a charged cell. So, the ATP is necessary because if you don’t have ATP, you can’t unfold the proteins and therefore you won’t form a gel.

Now, this gel does basically everything that we do as a cellular organism. So, for instance, the reason why it’s water or crystalline gel is because it has infinite binding sites. So, if you take estrogen, there’s a certain site on the water that it can bind to and that creates a change in the gel, which then is communicated and tells the DNA, for example, which also has its own crystalline water, it tells the DNA to make breast tissue, for instance. So, that’s how you go from hormonal signal … the gel is the interactive phase, the communicative phase, and then it creates an action by making a protein. It even binds to thoughts and feelings and hormones and vitamins and antioxidants. Everything binds to the water and creates a change in the gel. You can demonstrate this with analysis machines. And that creates actionable changes in the cell, which is what we call life. So, it all goes through that.

Now, my why do we get fever, snot, get better theory essentially is the definition of health is you have perfect inter-cellular crystalline gels like a radio. It’s interesting, if you give a radio to a person in 1400, I think they would hear the radio, somebody talking on the radio and they would open the radio to see where the little person is, except there is no little person in the radio. The radio is a receiver and as long as it’s in tune, it will accept these invisible whatever, waves, and turn that into perceptible sound. And that’s the same thing with the crystalline gels in our cells. Their configuration which is both universal and then somewhat unique to that person, they’re tuned to accept influences from the outside. When they do that, they translate that … Unlike a radio translates it into sound, our gels translate that into action, usually proteins or other movement or something, but if you change the dial on the radio and make it out of tune, the whole thing doesn’t work. And that’s what happens in our cells. If you dissolve stuff in the gels like arsenic or aluminum or something, you have an out-of-tune gel which is not receptive and then the whole thing falls apart. So, the only way you can get that out and reconstitute a gel is to heat it up like jello. If you had a poison grape in a bowl of jello and you said “I want to get that grape out of there,” you could take a big scooper and get it out and you’d probably ruin the whole thing or you could dissolve it with heat and then the jello would flow, it would liquefy, and then the poison grape would flow out and you could get it out and then you could reconstitute the gel. That’s what happens with us. You put aluminum in the gel. The body says this is not right. So, it dissolves the gel, that’s called fever, it makes it flow, the aluminum gets flushed out in the mucus and then it reconstitutes the gel. That’s how our bodies detoxify.

Gina:          That is a very extraordinary set of steps and thinking around water. We know water is the universal solvent.

Dr. Tom:     Right.

Gina:          Until you offer this sort of visual picture, this explanation, we haven’t really thought about how water does that purifying work and even why water would want to find a state to purify itself or create this dynamic living motion between incoming and exuding contaminants or waste, however we talk both of those. We have natural wastes that we need to get rid of and then we have this very contaminated and modern environment that we live in. And I love this idea of the relationship of heat to the form of water and how then that becomes a universal [inaudible] almost through a mechanical process of … I don’t want to quite call it mechanical. What I really want to call it is electrical.

Dr. Tom:     Right. Yeah. I mean, I often ask myself and patients and other people the question “What would you do if you were this body?” The point of it is to have a perfect gel. And if somebody put something wonky in your gel, what would you do to get it out? Well, I would dissolve it by using heat so it would flow and then I would reconstitute it. And that’s exactly what happens and that’s the only way it can happen.

Gina:          So, now you’re identifying in a very specific way how hydration is necessary for both biological function, communication, and information sharing and a secondary process of decontamination through moving things out of the gel matrix by eliminating the matrix, letting it flow as a more liquid form, and then reconstituting itself without, let’s call it the poison grape, right?

Dr. Tom:     Right.

Gina:          So, you’re identifying a value to water. Most people think the purpose of hydration is to keep us moist because it’s wet. That’s the purpose of water. What you’re talking about is such a sophisticated understanding of what hydration accomplishes in our 99% molecule by count water body that we have. We are bodies of water. It’s fascinating. So, I just want to really nail for our listeners and other people who are trying to understand what water is, it doesn’t just have a wet function… It does have a wet function. It has multiple functions that we’re not paying attention to. There’s this profound universal solvent quality to help us in a very challenging environment and it also has an informational structure. So, those are new ways to think about water that are quite important for the modern life that we’re living which is challenged with vast amounts of information coming in to our physical bodies and vast amounts of contaminants coming in. So, now the role of hydration becomes so prevalent, so prominent in how we’re going to get ourselves protected and in health in this kind of environment.

Dr. Tom:     Yeah.

Gina:          Did I get it? Is there more?

Dr. Tom:     My take on it is it can be possibly explained in a simpler way that maybe helps people understand. There are so many things. So, I would substitute the word ‘hydration’ for ‘gel formation’. So, what’s the problem with arthritis? So you have bone on bone and the bones are wearing each other away and then they hurt. So, why does that happen? Well, the normal situation is they’re supposed to be covered with gels. All gels are negatively charged so that when the two bones come together, negative charges repel each other and that allows them to move smoothly over each other, which is why you don’t have pain in your knee. If you lose that gel, then they stick together because there’s no negative charge and then they wear each other away and now you’ve got osteoarthritis and somebody says “I don’t know why you have osteoarthritis. Let’s put a new knee here.” And you can see that with sinusitis. You can see it with the flow of the water. I wrote a whole book about the flow of water in our blood vessels is a result of this negative charge, this electrical charge. So, you can see this all over the place.

So, the question I asked is what encourages the formation of these gels and then what inhibits the formation of the gels? And it’s very simple because Pollack did this experiment where you basically put a beaker of water and then you hang a hydrophilic tube in the water and the water and the hydrophilic tube interact and form a negative gel layer lining the tube which puts positive charges in the water, which then repelled and started flowing. So, all you need to form flow is a tube and water.

Now, if you put the tube in a lead box, it stops flowing. If you shine a sunlight on the tube, it starts flowing. If you put the beaker on the , it starts flowing. If you put your hands on the beaker, it starts flowing. If you put your dog next to the beaker, it starts flowing. All those things are ambient sources of energy which structure the water, create gels, and start flow and start energetically charging the human being. If you put your cell phone next to the beaker, this flow stops. Why? Because non-native electromagnetic fields deteriorate the formation of gels. If the formation of gels is what gives you life, which is what I just said, then it’s not a stretch to think that cell phone will kill you, not today but eventually it will or all these non-native electromagnetic fields. If you put arsenic in the water, it stops flowing because it inhibits the formation of gels. That’s how arsenic causes disease and kills people.

So, you can start to develop a living biology and see the unifying principle is the gels and you call it hydration, which I’d say is similar, but I think of … Hydration, to me, the problem I have with that, I guess, is if it’s water, it’s still hydration. If you change the gel phase inside the cell to a water phase, technically speaking, it could stay, it’s still hydrated but it doesn’t work anymore. And so, that’s the key. It’s not the presence of water. It’s the state of water.

Gina:          Yes. Amen.

Dr. Tom:     So, you could have wonky stuff dissolved in the water. You could have too much deuterium in the water. There’s a whole lot of ways of converting gel structured water into dysfunctional water, water. The problem is we have no understanding of that, we’re not even interested basically, and it’s because it gets you into the meaning or the definition in the investigation of life itself, which is basically a structured water phenomenon and we have no tolerance for that.

Gina:          Well, we have a growing body of thinkers who are helping bring this into focus. I would love to hear you speak. I know you are well acquainted with Dr. Pollack’s work. I’d love to hear you talk a little bit about Mae-Wan Ho. I think her research is very important. I know you’ve read her work. I’d love to hear what you think.

Dr. Tom:     I don’t think I know specifically what she thinks differently than what other people think. I don’t think I can say anything about that. I mean, I have read her work. It’s been a while but I don’t want to not be correct about what she said versus maybe what somebody else said and I may get it wrong and I don’t know the answer to that.

Gina:          That’s okay. That’s fine. Is there someone else’s work that has helped, besides Gilbert Ling and Dr. Pollack? Who else have you gone to, to think about water, to think about a new way to think about water? Where have you been shaped in your own thinking?

Dr. Tom:     I mean, it’s Steiner’s etheric body. For years I’ve seen my job is to essentially translate this very esoteric and dense and the language is just not accessible to most people and to translate it into a way that people including myself can actually see and work with it and make it therapeutically relevant because if somebody is not forming gels properly and pain in their knee, you might want to have them go out in the sun or put their feet on the earth or drink cleaner water or take proteins that increase structuring of the water. So, it’s a very practical field. I mean, it has its esoteric quality but it basically is how I do medicine in a sense.

Gina:          So, is that your list for forming gels, forming gel water? Sunlight …

Dr. Tom:     Sunlight, earth, human touch, your dog, walking, eat bone broth which has the proteins that structure the water, throw your cell phone off the nearest bridge and get rid of as many electromagnetic fields as possible and all sort of negative toxic influences from emotions to glyphosate, you name it, all these things. Vaccines are a huge destroyer of the gel phase. So, there’s a lot to do. It’s basically modern life. Modern Life destroys your gels. Traditional things, being out in the sun, laughing with friends, that’s what creates gels. Pure Food, all that stuff. It’s not complicated but it seems to be difficult for us to … like we say “Well, I like myself,” right? So do I but it’s killing you.

Gina:          There’s a challenge to modern life here that we need to address and think about and find ways. One of the reasons why we use the portal of hydration to have these conversations is that’s a word people understand.

Dr. Tom:     Right.

Gina:          They want to start the conversation on they know they need hydration, they know they’re in supremely dehydrating environments. I mean, literally, we’re surrounded by drywall. It’s kind of a joke. I like to say from my research on desert people that we all are living in deserts. We close the door and we’re inside there now.

Dr. Tom:     I mean, that’s a good point. And I appreciate that use of the word as a conduit into the bigger concepts. So, yes, I like that.

Gina:          Yeah, and the fact that water is a spectrum that slides through its own qualities, that fourth phase being this capacity for water to decontaminate and enhance its capacity to communicate, to run a high functioning information system which was mostly what Mae-Wan Ho’s work was. That liquid crystalline structure literally becomes like radio towers that can beautifully send efficient signals. That is all dependent on this gel state of water.

Dr. Tom:     Yes, absolutely.

Gina:          Really exciting information to bring into our very desperate modern world.

Dr. Tom:     Right.

Gina:          We want to help heal each other. We don’t want to just go away and live on an island by ourselves. I mean, we’re here as healers.

Dr. Tom:     I thought of that.

Gina:          Yeah, I’ve thought of it too. It’s [inaudible] days I’m like “I’m done. Guys, go take care of this and I’m just going to go have my own fun life.” And I know how to do it because I’ve been in many indigenous cultures but that’s not our …

Dr. Tom:     Well, Mae-Wan Ho’s the one where I got that from them. That’s where I got it from.

Gina:          I love it. I revere her work. And I think to help people why I’m asking you about who your mentors are, who you know because what I’m trying to do is help people understand there’s a whole network of people who’ve been working on this for a long time. And now the ability to sort of pull together their work and show there’s a phase of water we haven’t paid attention to that is foundational. We are made of this stuff. The fact that most physicians do not know that it’s not H₂O in your body is an extraordinary thing. That is insane. Well, how do we share? And, again, then we have to use the Greeks to the Greek. Our modern language is science. So, we can know these things in a way that doesn’t need science but in order to get in that healing chain, then we have to start the conversation around and that’s why I’d like to start to word use the word ‘hydration’. I wish I didn’t have to say it so much in my life, Dr. Cowen, but it’s a great place to start because then people are like “Yeah, I know I’m not as juicy as I can be.” And I’d really love to hear you say a little bit more about the spirituality and science and how you’ve walked that path in your own … because you are returning to the science and you’re helping us to return to the science and you’re speaking in a voice that allows us to look at the cell and a new way, to look at ATP in an new way, to understand electrical charge. This is fantastic to just bring into the physician’s concept that “We all know the cell runs on voltage. Why are we not really looking at that as foundational to how we’re going to adjust our health for this modern life?”

Dr. Tom:     Right. I mean, the question of spirituality, I usually sort of deflect that because what I focus on is that … Well, as I said, this question of are we only material entities, which I think I said my piece on that, that’s just nonsense. Therefore, everything else there must be spiritual. That’s sort of the definition, either material or spiritual. Now, of course, Steiner broke that down into different bodies and different hierarchies. And I don’t know about that firsthand. I have a little bit but I tend to stay with step one in this process was since it’s very clear that we’re not fundamentally material beings, not to say we don’t have a material body which we do, or another way to say it is if you took the stuff that makes up a carrot and put it next to the stuff that makes up a beet, does anybody think the difference in those two organisms is the difference in this stuff, like the beet has 1000 sulfurs and the carrot has 1003. So, the difference between a carrot in the beet is the number of sulfurs. Now, I would admit it’s interesting but what I would say is this spiritual body or this water body or this form body, one of them is looking for a little bit more sulfur than the other one. And so, that’s how life works is these spiritual bodies which I get into more detail, which is this form water body, that’s the most basic one, actually the way it works is it collects the substance that it wants, creates a living being out of that, and that’s what we call a carrot and that’s even the basis for our life. Implicit in that is that when this spiritual force, this non-material force, it moves on and then discards or separates from the material stuff and then that becomes dust again, it gets subject to entropy and gravity, and then it moves on and that makes a whole different thing. So, that spiritual force or that non-material body that we’re talking about is not subject to the same laws that the physical stuff is. The reason this gets so important is one can almost demonstrate that it’s basically immortal. It doesn’t get degraded like the physical stuff, which, by the way, is what all traditional people and indigenous people thought or anybody with any sense, I would say.

Gina:          Or Einstein.

Dr. Tom:     Yeah, or a lot of modern physicists. They say consciousness is first or that’s a spiritual force. The reason this is so important is there’s a huge push now because we only believe, we being modern dominant culture, that only physical reality exists. Therefore, I should try to download myself on to a immortal physical structure because it’s the physical structure that they want to be immortal. The other word for that is ‘Artificial Intelligence’. The reason they’re doing that is because they want to be immortal. The I that they’re hoping will be immortal is their physical body. That’s a terrible mistake and trap. The reality is they’re already immortal. They just don’t realize it. They connect themselves with only this one part which is actually the least interesting, least unique part. It’s just sulfur and hydrogen.

Gina:          Again, speaking as an anthropologist, we are the only culture that has ever thought. We’re the only culture that has included immortality in our understanding of what life is, what the life force is, how life forms, where it returns to after dust. It’s extraordinary to me that there’s such a vast history of human experience and how did we land here.

Dr. Tom:     Right? Well, I mean, there’s a certain evolutionary path, I guess, but the thing that’s so interesting is people are so determined to do this that they’re basically willing to destroy the planet in order to accomplish it. And, in a sense, I don’t blame them because if that’s all there is, then that’s all there is. And you might as well try to figure out how to make it work.

Gina:          The material isn’t that important all of a sudden or the reverence we need for the material isn’t that important. Part of our work here at the Hydration Foundation is we do talk … We use this word ‘hydration’ as the portal to talk about things. Most people think we’re going to just start talking about hydrating people but actually our mission here is to hydrate people, plants, animals, and soils because.

Dr. Tom:     Yes, the earth.

Gina:          Yeah, the earth is the ultimate place that requires hydration and that’s where we’re seeing dehydration happen at the most prominent and quickest place.

Dr. Tom:     Right.

Gina:          So we’re very concerned about … research on hydration and soil motility, for example, with the microbes in the soils need gel hydration in order to reengage their own diversity. And I know you’re very interested in agriculture and the process of how things grow and that you also have started a family business developing these beautiful well-grown plants, fruits, and vegetables, mostly vegetables that are then allowed to go through their entire gel state and then you powder them and in a sense dehydrate them but then offer that for rehydration. I’m very interested in that and I bet our listeners are too because getting to high quality modern foods, high foods in a modern environment is a huge issue, it is difficult issue

Dr. Tom:     I mean, that business was basically to try to help people diversify their plant intake. Plants are essentially the beings of this hydration, if you want to say that. Again, a plant is water form body plus substance. So, that creates unique substances that we call plants. So, they each have their own variation of a theme. And one of my principles of medicine is that in order to be healthy, you should get as many of those different variations as possible. Traditional people, some have made 110 different plants per year and 20 per day and Americans eat 20 per year and one or two per day and that includes ketchup and French Fries and things like that. So, that was the point of that to grow them as best we can using beyond organic techniques and biodynamic and wild and to make them accessible to people to diversify their diet. It didn’t have so much to do with hydration or gels, except that a plant is by definition, it’s a water body.

Gina:          That’s simple. Plants gets you a lot of good hydration.

Dr. Tom:     Right.

Gina:          Really simple.

Well, is there anything else you would like to say, Dr. Cowen, what are you reading, how are you researching this next book? Just talk to us a little bit about your next stage.

Dr. Tom:     So, the final of the three is, I don’t know the exact title but something about cancer and the new biology of water, which goes through this whole theory of how essentially the cancer process is a breakdown of the gel phase and how when you look at everything from the Gerson diet to the rife machine to structured water all throughout history and Lord’s you see this whole connection between water and cancer as a healing agent, etc. So, that’s coming soon. And then, we’ll see. I was asked to write something on children and how to raise healthy children in a toxic world, which I’ve sort of written and we’ll see what happens with that.

Gina:          Well, alright then give us like three things we can do to raise our cells and our children in a toxic world.

Dr. Tom:     Sunlight, earth and good food, and keep them away from electronic devices until they’re 92 years old.

Gina:          God bless you. May you flourish. We appreciate your time with us.

Dr. Tom:     Thank you.

Gina:          Our work here at the Hydration Foundation is to spread new forms of hydration, better hydration in a very challenging environment. We’re trying to help physicians literally come to our website and learn about hydration, learn about the things you’re speaking about, and even just send their patients to us because they don’t have time to have these extraordinary important conversations.

Dr. Tom:     Right.

Gina:          I mean, physicians are … we want to support them as much as possible. So, thanks for helping us.

Dr. Tom:     Okay, thank you.

Gina:          Thank you.

Dr. Tom:     Okay. Bye, bye.

Gina:          Bye, bye.

Gina Bria:   We’d like to welcome Sayer Ji, Founder of Green Med Info to our Hydration Foundation Doctors Talk interviews and our Hydration Solution Summit where we share extraordinary information on water and hydration and we’re very happy to have him. He is the founder of Green Med Info.

Sayer, we’re so impressed by your work used by almost 4,00,000 likes and people who use it and understand its value, share alternative information with their physicians that is already in peer-reviewed articles. So, there’s a profound place that you sit in to make that bridge between a wider way to approach health into the medical community through the concern and care of the person who’s seeking that information. So, we thank you for that work. And I wondered if you might want to say a few words about why you founded it and where it is now and what’s happening?

Sayer Ji:     Well, thank you so much for that introduction. It’s an honor to be here. First of all, I was pulled into the rabbit hole of water through Jerry Pollock whose lab I got to visit a few years ago. And since then, like you, I’ve just been blown away by the implications. So, my own road to this moment with Green Med Info was really just already having had a number of sort of natural healing experiences. I wanted to see if there was research to validate a lot of what I’d experienced personally and others who I worked with and who I love who had amazing experiences of remission or disease mitigation. And for what I saw, that was most lacking in at least narrative that predominates is that there isn’t evidence supporting natural medicine. So, when you know about the PubMed archive and the 30 million citations, I was like “Well, this is amazing. There’s this great resource, taxpayer funded. It’d be great if we had the studies in one location and hopefully easy to access.” So, I was doing it really for myself and for those I love and work with and it just over time became a resource that others use. So, all I can hope is that it will help support informed consent when it comes to healthcare decisions and, hopefully, it will continue to do that.

Gina Bria:   Thank you. I’m thrilled you mentioned Jerry straight up. So, Dr. Pollack, deeply dear, incredibly humble, wide open thinker and what he nailed in his lab work is so visible. And so, as you said, this has so many implications that now it’s left to the next cohort to chase down the applications of what he’s saying. Love it. And you are one of those bridge people and Hydration Foundation taking science and literally making a recipe out of it for people. So, like, okay, here’s clarity in a glass. Here’s the meaning of all of that so that I can pass that to my kids for their lunch program, I can bring a smoothie to my mom who’s in nursing care rehabilitation and understand what is in that glass. What’s starting to happen is we really get what water does to [inaudible][03:56].

So, I’d love hear what you think some of the implications are, the fourth phase of water or water that’s in this gel state. The whole summit that we’re presenting, Jerry’s one of our first speakers, but we’re really drawing people into this new information that there’s a kind of water that has different biological features.

Sayer Ji:     Exactly. So, for me, what was so profound about Jerry’s work was this concept that somehow water could act as a battery, right? And so, literally, when I went to his lab, he had a postdoc, they were working on the problem of creating an LED light that was being powered by the water so you could so see blatantly well that water produces a charge and it can be extracted and it can light up an LED. And he literally showed me this device along with his dissemination instrument which, of course, isn’t plugged into anything, just using the ambient infrared in the environment to create this exclusion zone along the surface of the hydrophilic membrane which was excluding all the solvents. And this device is so profound because in the world where there’s plenty of heat-off and if it’s near the equator and no potable water, this device could pretty much solve that problem without need for really even any money to create. I mean, it’s very simple. So that was a huge little light bulb moment for me because what he was describing was human physiology.

Gina Bria:   It’s the cell. It’s a picture of the cell, human cell.

Sayer Ji:     Absolutely. As the son of a biologist, my entire life I was, whether I liked it or not, immersed in the realm of biological discussion and thinking and experimentation. And the whole tradition of Biological Sciences is a desiccated paradigm like they were literally assuming you could separate the hydration and all biomolecules from biological structures and then somehow understand how things work. And my father, actually, back, I think, around time I was born in 1972, started to try to understand protein folding, which is one of the most amazing things on the planet. Mathematician Levinthal who coined the Levinthal’s Paradox which basically describes the mystery around how a protein folds to its native conformation, basically it goes through near infinite degrees of freedom from the primary amino acid structure all the way to the three-dimensional tertiary folding state and somehow obtains the perfect folding state and theoretically it takes infinite amount of information to select for that. And not to mention, its neighbors, the quaternary patterns, and then all the infinite number of other things going on. And so, one of the things that helps explain this is that water through the Franck-Condon Principle changes its state before the protein folds. So, people are looking sort of like where is it in the genetic code? Obviously, that’s a bankrupt pursuit, given the lack of information in the primary protein coding sequences of the human genome.

Gina Bria:   And it’s not about epigenetics now that it’s driven by its context.

Sayer Ji:     Yes, exactly.

Gina Bria:   It’s the talk between those two things.

Sayer Ji:     Exactly. And water represents a whole new realm of like meta or epi-epigenetics. And so, in other words, that really, from the beginning, opened my eyes to a new way of looking at how biological structures work and the interface with consciousness. And Jerry deserves profound credit because it’s really been revolutionary and the implications of his work to so many of the different domains has just begun.

Gina Bria:   It’s just begun. And the [inaudible][08:10] or putting our mind and our hands and our heart around what water is what it’s accomplishing versus it being invisible which is how we tend to … like the background of the petri dish, not knowing that it’s the engine. Amazing, amazing.

So, bring us into the lab. You’re standing there, you’re looking at the light bulb being run by water and understanding that it’s a picture of the cell itself as a battery.

Sayer Ji:     Exactly. We focus so much on sort of this glucose centric model of human metabolism or cellular bioenergetics looking at the mitochondria and sort of furnaces and there’s alternative pathways like beta-oxidation to fat burning but, primarily, the fixation has been on ATP as somehow mysteriously coming from us metabolizing food as if this is all worked out biomechanically and then it’s like [Inaudible][09:12] and the Krebs Cycle and all this explanation but when you really start understanding the implication of Jerry’s work to cell energy, we start to understand that the vast majority of the energy needed to power this miracle is actually coming from really the exclusion zone and the exclusion zone that codes hydrophilic surfaces and the infinite number of them throughout the body is being powered by the sun ultimately.

Gina Bria:   It’s shift in water from one kind of water to another kind of water.

Sayer Ji:     Yeah, basically the structuring in these like sheets of H₃0₂. So, it’s a new state of water with a different configuration than H₂0 which excludes solutes and produces a complimentary zone of positive charge, all these protons so you have what is essentially a battery. And so, a great example of this is the heart. For so long we thought the heart was pumping the blood through 100,000 miles of blood vessels but there’s just no way mathematically that’s possible with like 7 seconds of ATP and the heart muscle. It’s not that the heart doesn’t have a pumping function. It does but it doesn’t account for the tremendous amount of energy needed to drive the blood flow throughout the body. So, basically understanding how water is constantly being powered by the ambient infrared energy in the environment explains human physiology through a totally different lens. And actually, there are many alternative cofactors, if you will, to extra synthesis of energy. So, for example, for chlorophyll for plants, humans have an equivalent which is melanin. And there’s this Mexican researcher Arturo Herrera who has come up with a very interesting and compelling argument that melanin dissociates the water molecule like chlorophyll through hydrolysis and that fundamentally you have melanin performing a function of, in a way, amplifying the production of exclusion zone throughout the body.

Gina Bria:   Right, split in the positive and the negative and the charge in the water so that actually can then function as a battery of positive-negative. We understand these. We have the analogies in our heads Sayer to talk about batteries but we wouldn’t have had that conversation in the 1800s or we have the conversation now to talk about digital and superconductive information through the water and electrical system and body. We have new analogies to help us really get to what’s going on in the body. And what I find interesting is Dr. Tom Cohen also talks about the role of melanin and how this is a new finding that we’re understanding now some of the chemicals, they have that conversation with the water.

Sayer Ji:     Well, yeah. I mean, that’s fascinating. I’m in discussion with Thomas Cohen. He has several new books and one is on the new biology and cancer.

Gina Bria:   We interviewed him and he spoke on the book on our summit. So, that interview will be available.

Sayer Ji:     I wasn’t aware he was also discussing, which is exciting. I mean, just going back to Arturo Herrera, what he found was he was trying to understand blindness and he found that in the retina of the eye and the optic nerve it’s highly melanized and yet there’s very little blood flow, [inaudible][12:49] just don’t reach into those areas of the eye. So, he was understanding that melanin was basically performing the function of energy production as well as producing molecular oxygen because when we say disassociate the water molecule, we’re turning it into molecular hydrogen and molecular oxygen – H₂O₂. And so, you’re feeding in the oxygen and producing energy simultaneously through melanin. Melanin also is able to ingest the entire electromagnetic spectrum from radio waves and gamma rays. So, it’s an extremely powerful master molecule that preceded ATP because that’s always the question. There’s this irreducible complexity to ATP and what preceded it. An ATP may perform that sort of cardinal role for energy production. So, needless to say, there are these alternative means of energy production, one of which is chlorophyll, because there’s certain metabolite that is formed when we consume like say green vegetables and it goes into the mitochondria. That’s been found to increase the efficiency of the Krebs Cycle and the mammalian tissue as well as reduce reactive oxygen. So, technically, we’re photoheterotrophic. For the longest time, human physiology has been viewed as simply heterotrophic, right? We eat other things to get energy. Plants – autotrophic. They can just take it from the sun but now we realize we’re very much a hybrid organism. And that, obviously, has pretty profound implications.

Gina Bria:   Speaking as an anthropologist, which is my background, just knowing the hybrid quality of the human species, at every corner, the adaptability has made us available to so many different environments. And that’s kind of exciting to have in this moment here to talk about because our environments are so compromised now that we must adapt. We must find very quick adaptations as a hybrid species to the new environments that we created that have created a kind of biological compromise for us to live in. So, part of our message at the Hydration Foundation is helping people understand we are not matched to the environments we’re living in. We’re indoors. We’re without high-quality foods, especially high-quality water. And the amount of stress that we are producing as a daily event in our life over and over again, these are not natural for our system to work under. So, that’s why we’re all sick. I mean, Sayer Ji, one or two people have chronic illness? Really have we really gotten there?

Sayer Ji:     I’m not sure about the statistics on that. I think it might be a little bit lower. I mean, relative to diagnosis, I think we’re all suffering from these sorts of chronic afflictions but I think your point was profound around toxic exposure related to anthropogenic chemicals and we know about Jerry’s work, one of the things that they discovered was that very basic toxicants like glyphosate interfere with the production of the exclusion zone. So, it’s a new way of understanding the toxicity of these compounds is that they directly interfere with the structure and function of what is basically the hydration shell which is what provides not only energy but also information. I mean, that’s a key component of understanding water in its structured form is that for the longest time homeopaths have discussed the memory of water. And now, there’s a lot of new research that does show that water retains a memory of its structure and can obviously transfer it epigenetically and there’s probably transgenerational transference of information, at least, through somatic cells through the mother.

Gina Bria:   I think we can understand that again by the kind of tools we created over time as species and one of those tools, an easy analogy is the cassette that reproduces sound without the original there anymore. It’s just a passage of information, a tool of information, which doesn’t require the opera singer to be in the room with you anymore breaking the glass. She can still be doing that on a cassette tape and still have impact on the physiological world. And helping people really fall in love with water and what it does – its cleansing ability, its information transferability, its biological dynamism, its potency in terms of energy. And this is why the portal of hydration has become so exciting to bring people into that amount of impact on their body. They don’t even need to know all the science. They just need to get hydrated. And so, hearing about strategies for hydration is really, really … What I love about Jerry’s work is it moves it out of just the liquid form that we’re so used to thinking of it and moves looking for the gel form of water in many areas that we didn’t expect to find water, for example, inside of plants.

Sayer Ji:     Exactly. Yeah, I love that. I mean, I like the phrase biological water just to try to describe what you’re getting from say plants. I drink like [inaudible][18:33] with aloe in the glass because I believe the gel form has certain types of especially therapeutic properties but it’s such a precious elixir in this day and age because we know that … For example, coconut water, yes, there’s some simple carbohydrate there that could be an issue for some in excess, is such a perfectly filtered form of structure water that has obviously a number of benefits as well. So, I tend to really go out of my way to get those sources of hydration through food.

Gina Bria:   I love how nature packages water versus how we package water in that plastic bottle. It’s so exciting to find out that that an orange is a perfectly packaged beautiful travelable, that’s your new water bottle. And if we can share that message, it gets really exciting because now, without people even realizing it, they’re getting the hydration at a level and a quality that no one had told them about or they kept insisting that the only a glass of water, only a clear glass of water and we’re trying to move people out of that menu alone and into a really big picture of hydration coming into your system through deep breathing and vaporizing that you do.

Sayer Ji:     Yeah. No, it’s profound because if you think about it, I mean, so many people are still drinking bulk water through the tap. It may be indirectly through RO and it filtered out some of the solutes but when you think about how much energy it takes to structure water and then you’re consuming bulk water, there’s going to be a deficit. You’re going to have to take biological energy to try to incorporate it into yourself. So, you can do that. You can tell when you sometimes drink RO as almost like acidy taste and it just sits there but then if you drink something that’s “isotonic” like coconut water, it’s amazing. It just goes right into you. So, yeah, I think people can really start telling the difference between healthy structured and unstructured water.

Gina Bria:   How do you hydrate, Sayer? I mean, you were telling us a little bit but complete the thought.

Sayer Ji:     I am like anyone else. I struggle, I think, because I do import the glass, Mountain Valley Water. And I have to say though I’m not very happy about how hard. It’s like if you take one of those water heaters and you look at the residue at the end of the week, it’s remarkable how much chalk is there. It’s not to say that out bodies aren’t handling it or biotransforming it in some way. It’s just I know that it’s difficult to truly find the kind of water that may be for millions of years was prevalent to some of us. So, I do try to get my water out of plastic. I do try to find a “spring” source of water but if I do RO, I make sure to structure it by doing something like adding a pinch of Celtic sea salt or Himalayan sea salt. I’ll take a little squeeze of orange, for example, or a lemon to also add in that biological charge. And then, when possible, I even use sunlight. I’m in Florida. So, sometimes that will help as well. So, that’s one of the hacks that I’ll use.

Gina Bria:   Well, those match indigenous traditions all over the world. There were so many ways in which people were alert to the quality and the liveliness of their water. So, for example, I did my fieldwork among the Mayans and the tradition there was to lay ceramic tiles through channels and bring the water down from there to add additional charge as it moved across the minerals in the ceramics. Even the Iceman, one of the most studied bodies in the world, that was found in the Dolomites frozen, a Neolithic man, had a pouch with clay pellets in the pouch. And those clay pellets, we’re not sure, of course, we don’t have the information but it’s known that adding clays or salts to water helps structure those water. So, decontamination issues were already very alive. In the beginning of our history as humans, you’re going to come across decontaminated water. What do you do? We’re still solving, as a hybrid species, many of these issues. And what we want to do is encourage people that solutions are there and not to feel overwhelmed like “What can I do? It’s all downhill from here. The corps got us. What are we going to do?” It’s like “No! Man! Juicy thoughts.” Your thoughts have chemistry which have amazing capacity to create change in the water in your system, just by chemical release. So, here are some of the ways to change tap water into usable water.

Sayer Ji:     Yeah, absolutely. Well, my father and I went to the water conference in Bulgaria a few years ago and I remember having some amazing conversations with him because he’s a biochemist and he started to look at water very differently once he became aware of Jerry’s work and some of the other thinkers there. And one of the things that did come up is this concept of aqua resonant structures is that you have certain solids in water and they tend to generate these standing wave patterns that constitute really energy information packets. And so, homeopathy is percussion, you vibrate the water to amplify and to impregnate that and also in the medium. Well, that’s what naturally will occur when you add certain solutes. So, even like a little bit of a plant, it like could be metal or green tea, will likely create an entire structure because the patterns just replicate and then infuse this medium. So, that’s one reason why, again, if you drink distilled, that’s another good example, very pure water, but then to restructure it using a basic plant extract, something benign, you could even use a piece of aloe, this is a really wise decision, I think, if we’re going to drink water in a structured beneficial way.

Gina Bria:   I’d love you to say a little bit more about aqua resonance. I think this is a very important idea. People are going to have a hard time … I’m just going to lay a mental picture down so people can kind of get to it but we already know that if you throw a rock in a pond, waves go out from that and that’s one of our human joys is to watch that moment.

Sayer Ji:     Yes.

Gina Bria:   Actually, that’s an information traveling. So, whatever rock you thrown in the pond, that information is now replicating out into those waveforms and that’s happening on a nanoparticle level, right?

Sayer Ji:     Yeah, there’s always background motion on a nanoscale, the Brownian motion that is considered somewhat random. And the bonds in water, there’s trillions of vibrations per second. So, there could be a sort of scaling up of these vibrations into more orderly patterns but what it takes is inputs and one of them is something like a little bit of a mineral will help to nucleate the pattern and then stabilize it. So, that’s sort of what we’re talking about but if it’s just very arbitrary and random, then that’s the problem with bulk water is that in terms of its resonance with our biology, it needs to be brought up to a biological level. And that does take energy and it takes certain kinds of information. And without that missing piece, water can potentially be kind of deadening, toxic or it’s not going to promote optimal health, in other words.

Gina Bria:   Yes, when you are drinking chaotic water, it’s costly to your system because your system has to figure out … It’s like having a very noisy party arrive at your door and you’ve got to like figure out “Who do I feed? Where do I put this guy?” All of those things that we understand the emotional quality of, when you say that chaotic water is coming inside, this is a really valuable piece of information for people. They’re not aware. They are aware. They’re tired all the time. The fatigue is the number one complaint in our society. Of course, it is because the number one issue is we’re not getting enough energy.

Sayer Ji:     Well, I think there’s also this other side of the equation that interestingly Jerry brought to my attention, which is that there are cases that have been hospital confirmed of yogis in India who have basically lived and breatharian life where they have not consumed water or fruit. And so, that sounded kind of like on the fringe like new rage but, again, if there wasn’t some possible validation, several weeks of observation on camera, etc. confirm, then I don’t think Jerry would have brought it up but one of the reasons why he did was to explain why water is sort of like this mystical missing link in human physiology, which helps explain these anomalies. So, I looked deeper down that rabbit hole and what I found regarding water cavitation was just fascinating. And so, an example is a propeller on a boat. It’s been known in engineering for quite some time that naturally these steam bubbles are emitted with this process and that they create very high temperatures. In fact, some of the bubbles that have been observed through water cavitation reached the temperatures of the surface of the sun.

Gina Bria:   Can you explain what cavitation means just so I can follow you closely?

Sayer Ji:     So, it’s just basically an exotic water bubble. And it occurs naturally through certain machinery interacting with water. It could be a propeller on a submarine. And these little bubbles can also be produced in a lab through an acoustical wave. It’s called sonoluminescence or laser. And what happens is that the bubble collapses into itself, creating what’s called a spherical vortex which then generates light and heat. And the light and heat generated is very similar to what you find in stars. And yet this is happening in water. In fact, when you lower the pressure, let’s say, you have an experiment where you use a vacuum and you lower the atmospheric pressure to like zero, the water will little literally boil at room temperature but boil doesn’t really give you a sense of what’s happening because the temperatures are, again, going to reach maybe like a million Kelvin or higher, which is getting into the order of magnitude where you might see something like fusion or cold fusion. Well, if it’s water induced, it’s like cold fusion, which would help explain some of the physics behind cold fusion experiments. So, what’s so fascinating about this is it’s not just that it occurs naturally but there’s certain creatures that can induce the phenomenon such as the pistol shrimp. It’s known as a pistol shrimp because when it strikes its mandible, it creates a sound that’s like a gun going off. And I think it reaches like 218 decibels. So, they sometimes call them thumb splitters.

Gina Bria:   Miraculous.

Sayer Ji:     I know. Divers have been known to have their thumbs broken wearing a glass, split by these little shrimps. In fact, they coined the term shrimp [inaudible][31:05] to describe this. So, in essence, this creature is harnessing what is something that probably quantum field theory would help explain, meaning that there’s this quantum energy density, the vacuum has this energy density that’s nearly infinite that somehow can be harnessed biologically. So, that’s an example of a shrimp that’s figured out a way to use it. When you have geckos climbing walls, they’re using the Cosmere force, right? So, they’re extracting energy from the quantum vacuum. And there’s other examples where humans seem to harness quantum processes. So, taking it to the next level, if you have someone who’s 70 years old, who’s never consumed any water and food, where is he getting his energy and how is he taking that energy and transforming it into matter. This is something Jack Crews talks a lot about, how you can turn light in the mitochondria into programmable matter. So, I’m just pointing this out because this topic of water and energy is so much more profound than I think is generally discussed bug I think that it will help to reveal some of the mysteries around what humans are really capable of doing.

Gina Bria:   And allowing to happen inside of themselves when they hydrate. So, one of the points that Zach Bush makes, Dr. Zach Bush, we interviewed for this summit as well, and he made the point that really we just have to recognize the we’re all low functioning dehydrated. There isn’t anybody who’s not really hydrated. And if we can help ourselves as adaptable creatures in a highly toxic environment, get our hydration high enough so that it can do this exponential work, allowing us to live in a toxic world and actually turn that around both inside of ourselves and for our earth, our planet and water is the solution to do that. The energy available in water can decontaminate and add energy back into the soils, its agrological cycle on a vast level, and then also inside of ourselves.

Sayer Ji:     Exactly. So, if you really look at what the discovery around the exclusion zone implies is that if we can expose our bodies to the right wavelengths of electromagnetic radiation, let’s say, we do infrared saunas, you’re going to create an exclusion zone in the blood that will exclude the solutes that should likely be removed, glyphosate, all the various toxicants. So, it’s part of the detoxification process as well. So, absolutely, hydration and feeding the structured water in ourselves is really important.

Gina Bria:   Part of our mission at the Hydration Foundation is to connect people’s personal hydration to water solutions everywhere. So, what we will be doing in this summit is providing farmers with structured water to farm with and that link of finally getting the individuals participating in our summit, who are now going to understand what water can do, to actually get them to get water back to creation and restore acreage. So, the numbers are still working out but we’re going to be able to get a group of people every time to one farmer so that they can restore 125 acres at a pop. This is so different than you’re going to the farmer’s market, getting to know your farmer, buying some rations from him on Saturday is not going to reclaim our spoil as quickly as we need. So, we need the public to go to the farmer and say “I’m going to help you get out of chemical farming” because the best forms of hydration are foods already packaged by nature with water perfectly contained in the right proportion. So, getting farmers to get us the right kind of cucumber is a full circle now. And we need all the help we can get to do that kind of work.

Sayer Ji:     Yeah, I love that because when you look at what happened in California a few years ago with the approval of fracking wastewater for farms, some of which had USDA Organic Certified produce, it’s a nightmare, actually, when you look at the systemic issues related to food quality and just not just soil health per se but also water. And structuring the water, enabling nature to structure it is just another leap forward because what we’re wanting is the regeneration of the biosphere. It’s a whole [inaudible][36:09] world we live in. So, unless the whole is noncontaminated and healing, no matter how much we’ve shopped at Whole Foods and hermetically and we think we’re going to just protect ourselves, it’s not really going to happen. So, I really love that.

Gina Bria:   I’m so glad you said protecting ourselves is not protecting ourselves. We get into our little cocoons – “Well, I only drink certain kinds of water, I only eat certain kinds of foods, I police my environment, and I keep my kids safe and you guys go do it. Too bad for you” – that’s already a crisis. You’re already in ill health thinking that way. No, it’s getting together as a whole system. Once we understand that if we do it together, we can actually do this. We can restore planet health through our own personal health as well.

Sayer Ji:     I mean, I’ll just add this too that one of these wider issues related to hydration is actually the rollout of the millimeter wave frequencies for 5G communications networks.

Gina Bria:   I’m so glad to hear you speak about that.

Sayer Ji:     Yeah. I mean, I only got into this recently because I didn’t realize that when we’re talking about the bands of frequencies that are called 5G, which are going to be between maybe 5 Gigahertz to 100 Gigahertz or higher, what are called millimeter wave frequencies, they preferentially are absorbed by water molecules. So, that’s the challenge, right? These new networks, actually, they don’t pass through living things very well, which is why trees are the enemy. And they’re having to put up all these small cell stations in neighborhoods, maybe every hundred yards because these microwave frequencies will go into the water. And so, meteorologists have raised red flags because they don’t think that once they roll this out, they’ll be able to predict the weather as accurately. That’s how significant biospheric effect it will have. And yet, actually, it was Elon Musk’ company Starlink that received FCC approval for 20,000 satellites in space that will blanket the biosphere with this radiation so that they can make internet available anywhere on the planet. I only bring this up because we are water, obviously, 99% of our molecules by number and when we’re thinking about the role of this technology, it will preferentially target water-based organisms, all of us.

Gina Bria:   All of our living creatures. So, it’s very concerning. When we have the conversation on EMF, we do try to help people understand that water is also deeply protective. So, getting your hydration through not bulk water but through easy waters and structured water is going to be a really important buffer until we get to a larger collective solution about how we’re going to manage internet access and still have biological health forward as we steward all creation.

Sayer Ji:     Yes.

Gina Bria:   I’d just love to hear you ruminate on the role of structured water in EMF buffering or 5G protection.

Sayer Ji:     Well, you hit it on the head. It’s very simple, ultimately, and it’s still very new like this discussion. So, there’s the de-structuring effects of EMF and then there’s the structuring effects of our own body and the things we put in it that will encourage, as you said, like using biological water, doing things and ingesting things that are going to help to preserve the natural structure. And, obviously, mitigating exposure to various forms of EMF, there are many ways one can start to employ these strategies, getting a Wi-Fi router that will only emit when a device connects to it, for example, hard wiring your technology. And there’s a real compelling argument that we have to do some activism here because the FCC is a captured agency and the telecoms have done zero safety studies on 5G wavelengths. And, yet, they have really eminent domain when it comes to setting them up anywhere – schools, outside of our homes. So, there’s got to be a process, I think, of education and empowerment on a grassroots level. So, just becoming aware of the issue. And we’re not freaking out about it. That’ll de-structure your brain.

Gina Bria:   Right. And getting [inaudible][41:00] structure, you got a freak-out and, I think, people do feel like “I don’t know what to do. It’s way too big a problem for me.” And this is, again, why we have really tried to close the thread and bring up people taking direct action to support soil health because that soil is also going to be a 5G mitigator, an incredibly important one, and the plants that grow out of that soil, yet another 5G mitigator, very important one. The airs that those plants give off, another 5G mitigator. So, we’re giving a cumulative solution just by getting people to support farmers and soil health and really doing it. We can’t wait for the FDA or someone else. So, the whole point of the summit is to bring people to direct action, go help us get structured water into the soils, into our own bodies. We do this together as a community and we don’t have to wait for anybody to have impact right in our local community. Support a local farmer to do this.

Sayer Ji:     I love that.

Gina Bria:   They are so hungry for it. They’re so hungry for our care. These farmers are out there toiling alone and they see you in the farmer’s market with your basket and you bought the radishes from them and you want to talk to them and that’s all they get? An 8-dollar, 10-dollar bundle of radishes. This can’t be the wide scale solution. So, I’m falling in love with water as a solution.

Sayer Ji:     That’s falling in love with ourselves and the earth. So, I love that motto – “Falling in love with water.”

Gina Bria:   Falling in love with water, getting our thirsty earth what it needs, and doing it together is joyful. This is greatly empowered. So, we love having had this conversation with you. I love learning what cavitation was. I knew that the spin is extremely important for structuring water and the vortexing. The spiral is the actual message from the planet about how our energy gets made. So, knowing about that spiral and knowing that we can activate its own life is super cool.

So, is there any other thoughts you’re dying to get in here about water?

Sayer Ji:     Now that you mentioned it, one thought which comes from Dustin Harriman, whose work I really appreciate and I had a recent discussion with, is that his understanding of the proton is that it is a black hole. And that if you look at the sun, for example, it’s literally a white hole around a black hole. We can go and talk about that. Yes, it’s very esoteric but it’s very compelling but one of the things that’s most important about that model is that the sun emits water. And I’ve seen now papers published on this that the sun radiates water. And why this is important is because I believe that if we were to really understand, if you will, the esoteric physics and physiology of the human cell, we might find that water is being generated de novo. That’s one of the implications to when we start to really understand like the quantum energy density and the ability to transform that energy into matter. So, I would just throw that out there because I’m fascinated by the topic, not an expert on it, but there are people who are working on this and it just adds such a beautiful … Okay, if we accept that Big Bang is real, that’s a de novo synthesis of our entire universe. Why should we not think that our bodies are capable of generating water and forming water? Melanin actually is known to reform water from the dissociated gases, according to Arturo Herrera. So, there’s just something happening, nascent discoveries that are coming together and I think water is definitely going to be the key.

Gina Bria:   The water is our future and a water has been our past. It’s how we got made. There are lots of science papers supporting that the water molecule is the passage molecule for assembling other molecules to do their work. It’s where the energy comes from. And why is it so hard for us to think? I mean, a sperm and egg came together and generated us.

Sayer Ji:     Exactly.

Gina Bria:   Fascinating, beautiful. And here we are, as our separate glorious personal entities, to bring our contribution to our moment in life. So, I’m so glad for your work and the way you came together and what you’re doing in your life and I receive it, I receive it, joys there and we thank you for your work at Green Med Info. It’s courageous work. It’s hard work. We recognize that. If the Hydration Foundation can support you anyway, let’s join forces because it’s more fun. Who are you going to dance with at a party, right?

Sayer Ji:     Stay hydrated together. I like that.

Gina Bria:   Stay hydrated together. All of us stay hydrated, get our creatures hydrated, get our soil hydrated and we can do it. This isn’t that hard. It’s just the joyous recognition of where to take action. So, again, thank you so much for this interview. I learned something, I love what I learned and, again, it’s really lovely to be two people doing work in the world trying to bridge science into health, make science a recipe but what’s special for me right now is sitting here knowing that we both are carrying Dr. Pollock’s work into the world in ways that help people and that’s really fun

So, thank you, Sayer.

Sayer Ji:     Thanks so much for having me.